Archive for category Leadership Lessons

Why Pastors Should Drive for Uber

By Allen White 

I am a pastor, and I started to drive for Uber a few weeks ago. Why? Am I destitute? No, I currently work with 28 churches from across North America, and my book, Exponential Groups, comes out in February. To be honest, I was just curious and a little bored in my office one day. Driving for Uber has led to a few things I never expected.

1. As pastors we don’t fully understand the world we are called to win.

The problem is that we get our information from…other pastors or from other ministries. What if we could have a conversation with people who were far from God? I’ve tried that in the past. The reality is as soon as you reveal to a non-Christian that you are a pastor. You might as well have said that you are the only person in the world who suffers from both Ebola and the Zika virus. They usually look down, stutter, and come up with an excuse to escape the conversation. If they don’t run away, then they awkwardly try to come up with something religious that they think you might want to hear.

But, when you’re their Uber driver, that’s a different story. People tell their drivers all sorts of things. And, if it’s a group of people, especially Millennials, then they won’t talk to you, but you can eaves drop on their conversation. You have a focus group right there in your car.

The hardest part of your job is to listen, not to lecture. You can very quickly get an earful of what’s going on in your community. Some of it might shock you. But, your place is not to judge. It’s to drive.

I have gained insights into our culture that I couldn’t get any other way. My passengers will talk about life, religion, politics, you name it. Where else could I have a conversation with an African-American lesbian about what the presidential election means to her? It was a respectful conversation. She shook my hand at the end. In my Uber learnings, it doesn’t matter what I think. I want to hear what the passengers think.

2. Some pastors become accustomed to being served. It’s time to serve.

Now, don’t get mad. Pastors serve their congregations in a variety of ways every single day. I respect that. But, there’s something about opening a door for someone, or carrying their luggage, or changing the radio to a station you don’t listen to because it pleases the customer. You gain insights into how people work for a living. (I know you work…we covered that). But, imagine if driving for Uber were your only job? Could you live on what you make? For me, it connects me to people who serve others in general, whether it’s in restaurants, department stores, or anywhere else. You see the world differently, and you tip better, even if you were a good tipper before.

3. Pastors can minister to their passengers.

Not every passenger is having a great day. Some are tired from a long day at work. Some are worn out and ready to give up. Others are in a difficult relationship or are just in a very bad season of their lives.

I have invited passengers to church. I have occasionally given practical advice. One passenger even asked me to pray with them about the situation they are facing.

I didn’t come across as Mr. Preacher. I came across as the friendly Uber driver who was just trying to help. No better than them. No worse than them. I never counted on ministering to passengers.

Now, before you put your King James on the dashboard, remember that passengers rate you. If you make them uncomfortable, then they will give you a low rating. Too many low ratings, and well, you are back on the golf course and no longer driving for Uber.

4. What’s the Next Step?

Let’s get practical. I moved to Greenville, South Carolina to serve in a large church. In fact, 1 in 10 people in the Greenville area were part of our church at the time. What if someone recognizes me? I’ve only had that actually happen one time. If it happens again, then I think we could make a joke out of it.

If you live in a metro area, you might try driving on the other side of town. If you live in a small town, you might want to spend a day in the city (in the same state). Remember, you’re not driving the church bus. You are gathering information about the kind of people in your area and what they think about things.

If you want to try driving, it’s pretty easy to get started. If you want to drive for Uber, go to Uber.com and use invite code: RUDOLPHW51UE. (And, yes, I get a bonus if you use my code). Every state has different requirements. Be sure to read through it.

If you’re not brave enough to drive…ahem…then hire an Uber to take you somewhere and ask your driver questions. Just download the Uber app on your smartphone, and your first ride is free if you use this code: rudolphw51ue. (I get a free ride too).

Okay, this post may actually be among the looniest ideas I’ve ever presented, but what I’ve gained over the last few weeks is very insightful. Christians live in a world that makes less and less sense to us. Unchurched people aren’t going to conform to our norms any longer. It’s time that we rub shoulders with them and hear what they have to say. Oh, and if they ask what you do, then just tell them, “What I do is not that interesting, let’s talk about you…”

Maybe pastors driving for Uber sounds strange. I suppose we could just go hang out in bars instead…(or not).

Because of the interest in this topic, I have started an UberPastors private Facebook group to share stories about experience with Uber: https://www.facebook.com/groups/305720126490660/

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When Your Pastor Gets Fired

By Allen White Perry Noble and Allen crop

My pastor, Perry Noble, got fired. You can find the details at newspring.cc. But, this isn’t the first time a pastor of mine got fired.

The first pastor I worked for was fired at the first church I served after I’d only been there a year and a half. I was 27 years old. I won’t give all the details of what happened because the pastor and his family are still around. It was devastating to me personally. It was especially devastating to our congregation. It was devastating to our pastor and his family.

Everyone had to grieve the loss. Some of that grief came out as anger. Some came out of sadness. Some came out as distrust. For everybody it was a little different. And people went from one stage to the next in grieving our loss.

I’ve been in the church all of my life. When I was young, I thought pastors were cut from a different cloth. Somehow God’s calling and anointing on their lives made them invincible or something more than human. My years in Bible college cured that.

For a few years in a row in college, every guest speaker we had for any kind of spiritual emphasis ended up having an affair and being fired by his church. Finally after about three years of this, we had this goofy red-headed preacher speak for our spiritual emphasis. We knew we were safe with him.

My Bible college years concluded with the whole disaster of Jim and Tammy Bakker, which was followed by the next disaster with Jimmy Swaggart. I found myself filled with a mix of disgust and sadness. People who had been responsible for so much…People who had a vast spiritual influence over so many other people…They lived their lives in irresponsible ways. They took their calling for granted. They assumed that they were God’s special boys and somehow deserved special treatment. They got mixed up.

God doesn’t call the gifted. God gifts the called. Sometimes people confuse God’s gifts as their own personal gifts. They become deceived by the fact that God will continue to use them even though they are allowing sin to continue to manifest in their lives. The Bible gives us a long list of broken people who are mightily used by God. I always wondered why God couldn’t find better people. As I’ve grown older I’ve discovered that God was using regular people, and there weren’t better ones.

So after witnessing years of people with influential ministries being fired, I became somewhat numb to all of this. But what I hadn’t experienced was facing this in my own church. I hadn’t experienced watching two-thirds of our congregation leave and all of the staff as well. I hadn’t experienced people apologize as they left the church because their lives were stressful enough, and they just couldn’t add church stress on top of all of that. I hadn’t experienced being a 27-year-old pastor with 85 people left not knowing what the future would hold. Fortunately for us that wasn’t the end of the story.

What’s interesting is we lost everybody who was in favor of the pastor, and we lost everybody who was against the pastor. The group we had left were the ones that were in favor of the church. Now some of the old timers will try to give me credit for holding the church together. The truth is God was the one holding the church together. I was just trying to hold myself together.

At one point I even sent out a few resumes to find a different job. In the type of church I’d grown up in, the new pastor always seem to want to select their own staff and would dismiss the old staff in sort of a Machiavellian fashion. I thought before the new guy shows up I better find a job and have some place to land. As I prayed about where to go next, God asked me “Who told you to send out resumes?” I knew I hadn’t been released. So I picked up the phone and called the churches that I had sent resumes to and ask them politely not to consider me for their positions. God meant for me to stay where I was.

But staying was a lot to deal with. Every person I ran into, whether they stayed with the church or had left, were still dealing with their grief from the experience. I got to the point that for a few weeks I would show up at the office around the crack of noon and leave by 3 p.m. because that’s about all I could take. I couldn’t even go to the post office or the supermarket without being cornered by someone who was either sad or angry or accusatory. I learned to listen a lot and not talk very much. I had to put my own grief aside in a way so that I could help others process theirs. I spent a lot of late nights looking up at the ceiling asking God if this was part of His Plan or somehow there’d been a mistake. It was part of His Plan

Our people more motivated. They wanted to change. They wanted anything other than what they already had. We changed the name of the church with no problem. We changed the ministry style of the church with no problem. We changed the music in the church with no problem.

When I left our church after 15 years, we had grown from 85 people to about 1,500. Our church was serving in the community in various ways. The church was steadily growing. There were more people in small groups then we had attending on the weekend service. I’m glad I stayed.

Today, opens a whole new chapter for NewSpring Church. Amid much sadness, confusion, and speculation, there is hope. “We also exult in our tribulations, knowing that tribulation brings about perseverance; and perseverance, proven character; and proven character, hope; and hope does not disappoint, because the love of God has been poured out within our hearts through the Holy Spirit who was given to us” (Romans 5:3-5, NASB).

We love you Perry Noble. We are praying for you.

 

c u r r E n t l y

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A Lesson in Hospitality from Popeye’s

By Allen White popeyes

I met a remarkable man yesterday named Ralph.

Ralph is an employee at Popeye’s Louisiana Kitchen located near gate B14 at the Hartsfield-Jackson International Airport in Atlanta. ATL is my second home.

Rushing between gates yesterday, I decided to stop in for some spicy chicken. The line wasn’t long, but the tables were full. My eyes darted around trying to find a spot. If I couldn’t find one, then I’d be dining at my gate, which usually results in something spilled on my shirt. I was headed home, but nonetheless. Then, Ralph walked up to me.

He said, “Would you like a table?” Of course, I did. Then, Ralph said, “I will have this table ready for you right here. And, what would you like to drink?” I hadn’t even ordered yet. I told him sweet tea, then he said, “Alright, just stay in line to place your order.”

Once I had ordered and paid, my table was ready. Ralph had provided me with my drink, napkins, a plastic spork, and a straw. This is not what I expected from Popeye’s Louisiana Kitchen at the airport.

As I ate, I noticed Ralph approached every customer in line and asked if they would like a table. If a couple was standing together, he would seat the lady and ask the gentleman to stand in line to place the order. I don’t know whether Popeye’s is trying a new strategy or if this was unique to Ralph, but it was quite remarkable.

Ralph was no ordinary dining room manager. Ralph was the maitre de at Popeye’s Louisiana Kitchen at gate B14. He provided a level of service you never expect at any fast food restaurant except for maybe Chick-fil-A.

Next time I’m in the ATL, which will be soon, I will stop by Popeye’s near gate B14 again, but not just for the spicy chicken. I’ll stop by for Ralph and the spicy chicken.

What does your organization or business do when someone’s eyes are darting around looking for a solution? The regulars will make their way to where they need to go. But, new people will be looking around perplexed. What are you intentionally doing to help them? How’s your hospitality?

You need a Ralph, or a team of Ralphs

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Before Robin Williams Shows Up in Your Sermon, Think Again

By Allen White robin williams

Most people are well aware of actor Robin Williams’ passing this week. The public outpouring from every sector is tremendous. This man touched a lot of people’s lives. Whether they embraced him as Mork from Ork, or “Captain, my captain,” or a DJ in Vietnam, or a loveable, hope-inspiring doctor in Patch Adams, Robin Williams connected deeply in a lighthearted way with such a broad cross section of people. His inner child was his outer adult, which shows bravery most of us lack. But, pastor, before Robin Williams appears in your sermon, here are a few things to consider:

1. Suicide has had a Personal Effect on Your Congregation.

Somehow, someway, everyone’s lives are touched by suicide. For me, it was a friend who took his life during the last week of Bible college, because he lived in such turmoil he could see no way forward. Most people don’t consider suicide, but some do. Some of the people who hear your words will see a friend or loved one in Robin Williams’ coffin. Others will see themselves.

If you send Robin Williams to Hell, you are also sending their loved ones there. If you send Robin Williams to Heaven, what are you saying to those whose thoughts venture to suicide in their darker moments. I’m intentionally not saying where to take this, but I am encouraging you to think about this.

2. Finding Jesus is NOT the Cure for Depression.

God can heal physical and mental diseases. No doubt. Personally, I have prayed for people who have received miraculous healing. I’ve also prayed with people who received miraculous grace that got them through one day at a time.

If Robin Williams had died of cancer or heart disease, we might be more understanding. After all, many physical illnesses are incurable. Mental illness is also incurable. While mental illness can be managed and treated, it never goes away.

For some reason, especially in the church, we often judge people who are mentally ill as making poor choices in their lives or somehow not fully trusting in God. It’s almost as if physical impairments can’t be helped, but mental impairments just require people to simply try harder. If trying hard cured mental illness, then mental illness would be cured, because I don’t ‘know of anyone who tries harder to fit in or just function than people who struggle with these diseases.

There are plenty of Christians who love Jesus with all of their hearts and have committed their entire lives to him, yet they are Schizophrenic, Bipolar, Clinically Depressed or smitten with another illness. There are also Christians who love Jesus, and they struggle with diabetes, heart disease, obesity and a number of other mostly preventable conditions which are actually within their control. Their deaths may not be imminent, but they certainly will come sooner than they should.

Mental and spiritual matters seem more inseparable than physical and spiritual matters. The fine line between the soul and spirit is hard to navigate. Can our souls be saved, while our minds are “lost”? That doesn’t even make sense. We are whole beings. Yet, just as the Apostle Paul prayed for his tormenting illness to disappear, God offered grace instead of healing.

3. The Church Must Do Something.

People suffering from mental illness are often misunderstood and stigmatized. As hard as they try, they often don’t fit in. If they have a family, the family often feels like outsiders as well. Where can they find acceptance and understanding? If it’s not the church, then where?

What help and support does your church offer to those with mental illness and their caregivers and families? Are they welcome through your doors? When they come, are you prepared to accept them? Will you offer support? Are there organizations in your community that your church can partner with? At a minimum, could you offer a meeting room for a NAMI group for free? Are you familiar with Rick and Kay Warren’s conference at Saddleback called The Gathering on Mental Health and the Church?

People with mental illness are exceptional. Certainly every mentally ill person is not a comic genius like Robin Williams, but they are exceptional because they don’t fit into the norm. Institutions are best equipped to serve those in the norm — schools, government, even the church cater to the average Joe. Most institutions are either too small to have resources or are too large to deal with exceptions. Yet, there are families with autistic children (1 in 88 children now) who will never fit into your Sunday school without being a “behavior problem.” Should they just stay home? After all, there are 87 out of 88 to pursue.

No one is doing great work with the mentally ill. They are constantly shuffled back and forth from agency to agency. Most will end up in jail or homeless or dead. The church possesses the hope of the world. If anyone should care, shouldn’t it be the church? Begin to equip yourself, and God will use you. Be open.

Before you mention Robin Williams, do you truly understand his illness? It’s not easy to reconcile a life that brought so much pleasure to so many, yet was tormented by so much pain. Before you go there, what are you willing to do to help the next “Robin Williams” who walks through your church door?

It was probably too soon to write a blog post about Robin Williams. But, so many posts and comments are appearing that are condemning Robin Williams and judging him without truly knowing him or understanding his struggle. I felt I needed to saysomething. This is a tragic loss.

If you need a sermon illustration for Sunday, use something else. It’s too soon. Robin Williams affected many, many lives and means so much to so many. A trite sermon illustration does him a disservice. He was a very special person, exceptional even.

 

Related Post:

How Do I Meet the Emotional Needs of My Group Members?

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Connecting the Invitation and the Response

By Allen White

What if the difference between success and failure lies in the few steps between the auditorium and the lobby? That’s what I witnessed about a year ago. The much beloved responsefounding pastor of a multi-site, megachurch invited his congregation to open their homes and invite their friends to join them for a six week study the church had produced. The curriculum was awesome. The pastor did the teaching. The topic was relevant. It was a sure thing, but don’t be so sure.

At the close of the service, the pastor made an impassioned appeal for his members to take the next step and start their own group. But, it wasn’t just one next step, it was 20-30 next steps out to the lobby. That evening a crowd of 1,000 adults netted 18 groups. All of our hearts sank.

The pastor had said the right words. He was presenting the right offering at the right time. The church was familiar with small groups. Why the poor result?

Over the years, I’ve seen great messaging become ineffective simply by the distance between the invitation and the response. The best curriculum, the strongest leadership or even the most carefully crafted appeal can all unravel in a matter of minutes if the wrong step is given in recruiting group leaders. A few simple nuances can net a profound effect.

At that church, we made a quick change. Rather than prospective group hosts responding by signing up in the church lobby after the service, the new next step involved no steps at all. The response was simply to take out a card and sign up right there in the service. The cards were collected at the end of the service. The result went from 18 groups to 248 groups in less than 24 hours. The final result over the next three weeks was 1,100 new groups across all of their campuses.

I am convinced most people only think about church when they are sitting in church. Any effort to send people to the lobby or God forbid send them home to sign up on a website simply does not work. By the time well intended church members hit the threshold on Sunday morning, their stomachs have raced to lunch and their minds have raced to evacuating the premises as soon as possible. The moment has gone.

The closer you connect the invitation to the response, the better the response. If the invitation is made in a service, then collect the response in a service. If the same invitation is made by a video email at midweek, then collect the response in the email. By simply providing a link in the email, a willing member can click the link and sign up to start a group right on the spot.

In a perfect world, church members would go home, login to the church’s website, and sign up electronically. No fuss. No sign up cards. No data entry. Simple. That world does not exist. To send someone from the service to the lobby or to their computer to sign up is equal to making no invitation at all. The reverse is also true. To send an email midweek asking for a response the following Sunday is just wasted megabits.

Think like the people who sit in your rows.

  • What’s available to them in their row?
  • Is there a response card or do you create a card?
  • Do they have a pen?
  • Who will collect the cards? Are they placed in the offering, collected at the end of the service, or handed to an usher on the way out?
  • Maybe pen and paper doesn’t cut it. What else do they have? What about their cellphones? Can they send a text to a designated number (not yours!)?
  • When you send an email invitaiton, can they fill out a survey or a web form?

Missed opportunities occur when you can’t adequately collect the response. These thoughts may seem elementary. They may seem unnecessary. You may feel you are getting a good enough result from how your collecting responses now. Or are you?

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10 Great Things About Working from Home

By Allen White

Over the last couple of years, I have worked from a home office. After 20 years of getting up every morning and driving to an office, I have found certain advantages to working from home:

1. Flip flops in Summer and Slippers in Winter.IMG_20130624_194731

2. I can travel the country via teleconference at the click of a button.
3. Pants are optional. (Shorts are a minimum requirement).
4. The only clean part of my office is what you see on camera.
5. Unlimited hugs from my kids (we homeschool too).
6. Commute is Zero.
7. Banking by Mobile App
8. USPS delivers and ships from my mailbox every day.
9. The view from my office window is spectacular.
10. I’m never “always at work.”
Anyone else with a home office want to chime in?
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What the Fly Lady Taught Me About Task Management

Image

by Allen White
I know what you’re thinking — “Who is the fly lady?” The Fly Lady is a phenomena of household organization. She is on a quest, one household at a time, to defeat chaos and improve lives through decluttering and home organization.

Now, I know what you’re thinking next — “Why is she the Fly lady?” This can be confusing to some. She is not fly in the JLo from In Living Color sense. She became known for tying flies for fishing before her career began to help others “fly” through their household chores. Her site is http://flylady.net.

Now, before you stop reading, this is the principle I use every day for my task management: “The worst is first and fast.” Think about all of your tasks for the day. Which is the worst one? Writing your weekly blog post? Confronting someone on an issue? Painting the nursery for your new baby (mine)? Get it out of the way first. As quickly as you can, and then you can have your life back.

When we put things off, those “worst” tasks will drain the life out of everything else for the rest of our day, week, month, year. If it was done, it would be behind us. Wouldn’t that feel nice? Wouldn’t that lighten the load? Get the worst out of the way and get on with the rest. It’s no longer hanging over our heads. It’s done, fini, adios!

It’s a great principle I use every day. Give it a try.

Now, my wife is telling me this principle did not come from the Fly Lady, but rather from Donna Otto. Donna Otto is not the Fly Lady. I’m not sure they’ve met. The principle remains true. Check them both out!

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What a Trip to the Dump Taught Me About Blogging Like Ben Reed

By Allen White 

Ben Reed is a gifted guy who blogs Life and Theology at benreed.net. He has a knack for finding leadership lessons in various situations, then blogs about them. For some reason, as I headed to the dump last week, I thought of Ben’s writing. (That isn’t a commentary of his writing, by the way). Here’s what I discovered:

1.       When you have to wait, you have time to think.

If you’ve ever taken a load to the dump, you know there is no express lane at the dump. No fast pass. No gold card. It’s a great equalizer, except for the rich folks who pay people to go for them. Waiting in line at the dump gives you plenty of time to think.

John Maxwell said once, “We don’t learn by experience. We learn by evaluated experience.” After all if we solely learned by experience, then why has anyone ever repeated a mistake? We should have learned. But, when you take a little time to reflect, maybe as you’re waiting at the dump, you gain insights into not only what worked and what didn’t, but also what led you to the experience, why you were motivated to go there, and how you can be more effective in the future.

For instance, if you need to go to the dump, you understand to avoid Saturdays. Go in the middle of the day during the work week, if you can. Otherwise, you will end up with a LOT of time to reflect.

2.       Any life situation can teach a lesson.

Some of us have “pastoritis.” We’re not allergic to pastors. But, we can turn any story into a spiritual analogy.

Back when we lived in Northern California, I would hike in Yosemite National Park with my friends. I would always “Mirandize” them prior to the trip: “Anything that happens can be used as a sermon illustrations.” There were a lot of great stories out of those trips – most at my expense.

If we pay attention, there are lessons to be learned all around us. Jesus did this in His teaching. He taught based on agriculture, shepherding, lilies, birds and many other common things. Jesus took unfamiliar concepts and packaged them in familiar language. What is your life teaching you?

3.       When you go to the dump, you are not in charge.

No matter who you are, no matter how much you make, no matter who looks to you for leadership, when you’re at the dump, nobody cares. My son and I hopped out our van and began loading boxes into a large recycling container. A worker shouted across the parking lot, “Put the boxes in on the other side!” This wasn’t Jesus telling us to cast our nets on the other side.

Somehow the distribution of our cardboard was going to radically offset the recycling container’s balance. Not only were we recycling our cardboard, now we were sorting it. I was not in charge. I had to follow the rules. My status at the dump simply came down to this: was I a good customer who followed instructions or was I a bad customer about to be scolded by a county employee? Nothing else about me mattered in that moment.

4.       A surprising mix of people use the dump.

As I looked around the dump, I saw a number of vehicles I was surprised to see at the dump. Maybe saving on trash pickup helped them to afford their cars. Then, there were other cars the owners could have very well left at the dump. I was driving my wife’s car, so we were somewhere in the middle.

Some people where there with an overabundance of yard waste. Others didn’t want to pay the $25 per month for garbage service, so they did it themselves. Several, like my son and I, were dutifully recycling. Others were trying to figure out why the sanitation workers wouldn’t haul off their old TVs and computers.

The dump isn’t mandatory like the DMV. You don’t have to go there. But, it’s free and it meets a variety of needs. I’m contemplating ending my garbage pickup, but I’m a little afraid they would keep my car too.

5.       Mentioning “Ben Reed” on your blog is an SEO magnet.

Ben Reed is an outstanding small groups pastor at Grace Community Church. Ben Reed lives in Clarkesville, Tennessee. Ben Reed runs communication for the Small Group Network. Ben Reed tweets more than anybody I know. Ben Reed just helped my SEO…cha-ching. Thanks, Ben Reed, for being a good sport on my blog today.

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Rick Warren and Chrislam: Do Christians and Muslims Worship the Same God?

A recent article in the Orange County Register led readers to believe Rick Warren thinks the gods of Christianity and Islam are the same. Here is the original article from the OC Register: http://www.ocregister.com/articles/muslims-341669-warren-saddleback.html

Below is an interview with Rick Warren in response to these questions:

RICK WARREN ON MUSLIMS, EVANGELISM & MISSIONS

(with Brandon A. Cox & Christian Post)

QUESTION: Do people of other religions worship the same God as Christians?

WARREN: Of course not. Christians have a view of God that is unique. We believe Jesus is God! We believe God is a Trinity: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Not 3 separate gods but one God. No other faith believes Jesus is God. My God is Jesus. The belief in God as a Trinity is the foundational difference between Christians and everyone else. There are 2.1 billion people who call themselves Christians… whether Catholic, Orthodox, Protestant, Pentecostal, or Evangelical…and they all have the doctrine of the Trinity in common.

QUESTION: A recent newspaper article claimed you believe Christians and Muslims worship the same God, that you are “in partnership” with a mosque, and that you both agreed to “not evangelize each other.”You immediately posted a brief refutation online. Can you expand on that?

WARREN: Sure. All three of those statements are flat out wrong. Those statements were made by a reporter, not by me. I did not say them …  I do not believe them… I completely disagree with them … and no one even talked to me about that article!   So let me address each one individually:  First, as I’ve already said, Christians have a fundamentally different view of God than Muslims. We worship Jesus as God. Muslims don’t. Our God is Jesus, not Allah. Colossians 2:9 “For in Christ dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily.”   Second, while we urge our members to build friendships with everyone in our community, including Muslims and other faiths, (“Love your neighbor as yourself”), our church has never had any partnership with a mosque.  Friendship and partnership are two very different levels of commitment. Some of our members have hosted a Bible study with Muslim friends, which I applaud, but I’ve never been to it, and a Bible study certainly isn’t any kind of partnership or merger! It’s just crazy that a simple Bible Study where people explore Scripture with non-Christians would be reported as a partnership and others would interpret that as a plan for a new compromised religion. Just crazy!  Third, as both an Evangelical and as an evangelist, anyone who knows me and my 40 year track record of ministry knows that I would never agree to “not evangelizing” anyone!  I am commanded by my Savior to share the Good News with all people everywhere, all the time, in every way possible! Anyone who’s heard me teach knows that my heart beats for bringing others to Jesus.

QUESTION: That same article mentioned that you ate an Iftar dinner with Orange County Muslims. What is that all about?

WARREN: It’s called being polite and a good neighbor. For years, we have invited Muslim friends to attend our Easter and Christmas services and they have graciously attended year after year. Some have even celebrated our family’s personal Christmas service in our home. So when they have a potluck when their month of fasting ends, we go to their party. It’s a Jesus thing.  The Pharisees criticized him as “the friend of sinners” because Jesus ate dinner with people they disapproved of. By the way, one of my dear friends is a Jewish Rabbi and my family has celebrated Passover at his home, and he attends our Christmas and Easter services.  I wish more Christians would reach out in love like Jesus.

QUESTION: Why do you think people who call themselves Christians sometimes say the most hateful things about Muslims?

WARREN: Well, some of those folks probably aren’t really Christians. 1 John 4:20 says, “If anyone says, ‘I love God,’ yet hates his brother, he is a liar. For anyone who does not love his brother, whom he has seen, cannot love God, whom he has not seen.” And 1 John 2:9 says “Anyone who claims to be in the light but hates his brother is still in the darkness.”  I am not allowed by Jesus to hate anyone.  Our culture has accepted two huge lies: The first is that if you disagree with someone’s lifestyle, you must fear them or hate them. The second is that to love someone means you agree with everything they believe or do. Both are nonsense. You don’t have to compromise convictions to be compassionate.

QUESTION: Let’s talk about evangelism. In the past 10 years, Saddleback Church has baptized over 24,000 new believers. No other church comes close to that record. You are likely the most evangelistic church in America. What’s the key?

WARREN: We are willing to do what many other churches are unwilling to do. We are willing to go beyond our comfort zone.

QUESTION: For instance?

WARREN: Because Jesus commanded us to take the Gospel to everyone, I spend much of my time with groups of people who completely disagree with what I believe. I’m constantly trying to build a bridge of love to nonbelievers, to atheists, to gays, to those I disagree with politically, and to those of other faiths. We don’t wait for these people to come to church; we go to them and share with them on their turf, not ours. Every member is a minister and a missionary. Saddleback was a missional church 30 years before the term became popular. We just called it being “purpose driven”.

QUESTION: “Building a bridge” sounds like compromise to many people.

WARREN: Building a bridge has nothing to do with compromising your beliefs. It’s all about your behavior and your attitude toward them. It’s about genuinely loving people. People don’t care how much you know until they know how much you care. Before people ask, “Is Jesus credible?” they want to know if you are credible. Before people trust Jesus they must trust you. You cannot win your enemies to Christ, only your friends. It’s part of what Paul calls “the ministry of reconciliation.” It is Christ-like to treat people with dignity and listen to them with respect.

QUESTION: Why are most Christians so ineffective at sharing their faith?

WARREN: I have a whole seminar on that! First, they don’t really have any unbelieving friends. They spend all their time with other Christians. As a result, they are afraid to share their faith because it feels unnatural to them. For most people to come to Christ, you must build a relationship with them first. You must love them. The truth is, most Christians love everything else more than the people around them that Jesus died for. Second, many don’t really believe that people are lost without Christ. Third, many Christians are afraid of the criticism they will receive from other Christians if they hang out with unbelievers. It was the religious people who hated Jesus the most. They criticized him for associating with tax collectors and lepers and prostitutes and politicians and going to parties. Lost people loved Jesus but the religious folks saw his associations as dangerous compromise. The same is true today. Modern Pharisees still use guilt by association as a weapon. Just read the blogs. They’d rather hunker in a bunker and attack those courageous enough to reach out to non-Christians. I do not fear the disapproval of others. I fear the disapproval of God on my disobedience to what he has clearly commanded us to do.

QUESTION: What is the P.E.A.C.E. plan?

WARREN: It is a biblical strategy of ministry based on five activities Jesus modeled in his ministry. Saddleback members have been beta testing it for the past nine years all around the world. Each letter of P.E.A.C.E. represents one of five things Jesus taught his disciples to do: P stands for Plant churches. E stands for Equip leaders. A stands for Assist the poor. C stands for Care for the sick. E stands for Educate the next generation. The PEACE plan is accomplished by local churches through local churches. It is based on three passages of Scripture and the specific instructions Jesus gave to his teams that he sent out. There are at least a dozen major differences between the PEACE Plan and the traditional, typical mission program of NGOs and parachurch organizations of the past 100 years. It is a return to the missional strategy.

QUESTION: What is the PEACE Center?

WARREN: Based on Jesus’ instructions in Acts 1:8, we practice the PEACE Plan in three dimensions: PERSONAL PEACE – my ministry to those closest to me; LOCAL PEACE -our congregation’s ministry to our community; and GLOBAL PEACE – serving other local churches around the world as those congregations do their own local PEACE.  The PEACE Center is the building on our church campus that houses about three dozen of our 300 ministries to the community. It offers our food bank, job training, family counseling, legal aid, car repair, tutoring, English as a second language, legal immigration assistance, and many other ministries.

QUESTION:  I read an article that claimed you were building a PEACE Center to bring Muslims and Christians together in peace.

WARREN: It was the writer’s mistake. He got two different stories confused.  Our recently opened PEACE Center, on the Saddleback Church campus has NOTHING …zero… to do with our Muslim friends.

This is an example of why I always doubt what I read in newspapers and blogs about ministries. Secular reporters trying to cover churches and theological issues often get it wrong. But then Christian bloggers, instead of contacting the ministry, blindly believe, quote and repost the errors made by secular reporters. Then those errors become permanent, searchable, and global on the Internet. I couldn’t count the number of times a secular reporter has gotten a story about Saddleback wrong but then it is perpetuated by Christians who never fact-check.  And the three factors I mentioned about the Internet make it impossible to correct all the misperceptions, and outright lies that get repeated over and over.

QUESTION: You mentioned legal immigration services. How many languages do Saddleback members speak?

WARREN: At last count, I heard we speak 76 languages in our church family. One of our 10 values, the “A” in our S.A.D.D.L.E.B.A.C.K. strategy, is that we are an ALL-nation congregation. We are a multi-ethnic church. We want our congregation to look like heaven will look – with every age, race, tribe, and economic background represented.

QUESTION: What is the goal of your ministry?

WARREN: To know Christ and make Him known! To live out Jesus’ Great Commandment and Great Commission! In fact, this has been the motto of Saddleback Church since we started it in 1980: “A great commitment to the Great Commandment and the Great Commission will grow a great church.” Everything we do comes out of these two great texts. God’s five eternal purposes for both our lives and the church proceed from these verses. The Purpose Driven Church and The Purpose Driven Life explain this in detail.

QUESTION: Through the PEACE Plan,Saddleback became the first local congregation in 2000 years of Christian history to send its members to literally “every nation” as Jesus commanded.

WARREN: That’s correct.

QUESTION: How did you accomplish that?

WARREN: By taking Jesus’ command seriously. When Jesus said, “Go to EVERY nation” we asked ourselves as a church family, “Has any local church in 2000 years ever actually done that? If not, why don’t we be the first!” So we set a goal to send our members to every nation of the world to do the five tasks of the P.E.A.C.E. Plan by the end of 2010.  Of course I know that the Greek ta ethne refers to people groups or tribes not political nations, but you have to start somewhere! So we decided that we would send our members on mission to all 197 nations in the world. (There are 195 nations in the United Nations. The only two nations not in the United Nations are Taiwan and Serbia.) On November 18, 2010, a Saddleback team went to the last nation, #197, a small island in the Caribbean called, St. Kitts. Now, our goal for the next decade, which we call our Decade of Destiny is to mobilize a network of churches who will commit to planting new churches in the final 3,600 unengaged people groups that still do not have a Christian church.

QUESTION: How many members did you send out to complete your church’s goal of taking the gospel to every nation?

WARREN: 15,867 members were sent out. Of course, we’ve gone way past that in the last year.

QUESTION: What is your mission goal this year?

WARREN: Within a year from this Easter, we intend to plant new churches in 12 strategic cities around the world as resource centers and base camps for the greater goal of planting churches in the 3600 unengaged people groups.

QUESTION:  What are those 12 cities?

WARREN: Tokyo, Berlin, Johannesburg, Bangalore, Buenos Aires, Hong Kong, London, Freetown, Moscow, Mexico City, Amman, and Manila.  Anyone who’d like to be a part of the team should contact me at PastorRick@saddleback.com or on Twitter, Facebook, or LinkedIn.

QUESTION: Are you promoting Chrislam?

WARREN: Of course not. It’s the lie that won’t die. No matter how many times we refute it and correct that lie, people keep passing it on as truth. Jesus is the only way to salvation. Period. If I didn’t believe that, I’d get into a much easier line of work! But I do believe that everybody needs Jesus and I am willing to put up with false statements and misunderstandings in order to get the Gospel out.

QUESTION:  What are your greatest frustrations about evangelism?

WARREN: That Christians would rather argue than evangelize. That people are more interested in winning arguments that in winning people. That people are more interested in making a point than in making a difference. That people put politics above the souls of people. That people are more afraid of guilt by association than allowing others to go to hell.

QUESTION: If anyone wants to learn or teach their church how to be more effective in evangelism and missions what should they do?

WARREN: Write to me at PastorRick@saddleback.com and ask me for an invitation to the group of leaders I train each week through a private webcast.

QUESTION: Any last word?

WARREN: Reach one more for Jesus! Anyone who’s read Purpose Driven Life knows those were my father’s last words and deathbed instructions to me. It is the theme of my life and I invite you to make it yours.  Nothing is more important than the eternal destiny of those around us.

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